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| Gamekeeper Sutcliffe http://briercliffesociety.co.uk/talkback/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2784 |
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| Author: | Mel [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Gamekeeper Sutcliffe |
http://www.briercliffesociety.co.uk/Pho ... cliffe.htm Kris, have you any idea of the date of the above image? I'm wondering if the census might reveal something? |
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| Author: | Leaver [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gamekeeper Sutcliffe |
Hi Mel, I don’t know when this photo was taken, but I suspect the clues could be found in the fashion. He is wearing a bowler hat, and his suit has a very small high collar, and the top button is done up. He is also wearing a waistcoat and pocket watch. I did a search for the history of the bowler hat http://www.ehow.com/about_5037692_bowle ... story.html And dating old photos, but didn’t find very much. Here are some photos of men wearing their suits in a similar fashion. Briercliffe parish council http://www.briercliffesociety.co.uk/Pho ... ouncil.htm Burnley Borough Building society http://www.briercliffesociety.co.uk/Pho ... ociety.htm Top two buttons done up (circa 1880) http://www.briercliffesociety.co.uk/Pho ... Men/10.htm Briercliffe couple circa 1899 http://www.briercliffesociety.co.uk/Pho ... Couple.htm So my best guess is circa 1880-1900? But probably closer to 1900? Is it possible to do a census search with the job title? |
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| Author: | Mel [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gamekeeper Sutcliffe |
Thanks Kris. Not that I am aware of. I looked at Towneley in 1891, 1881 & 1871 but could not find it in 1861 though I didn't look too hard - I thought it might be a bit too early. I'll take a look at the 1901. |
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| Author: | Alan Jeeves [ Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gamekeeper Sutcliffe |
From what I can see of the immage Mr Sutcliffe is dressed as a typical keeper of his era. Being a shooting man myself I know that the bowler hat he is wearing is probably part of his 'uniform' and there is a good chance that his employer insisted on him wearing it on shoot days. The wearing of this type of hat by keepers was introduced in the latter part of the nineteenth c. by Lord Leicester of Holkham, Norfolk. The 'fashon' was copied by many estates thereafter and the wearing of them is still a tradition at Holkham today. The bowler hat (in this case) is also called a 'coke' - after the good Lord's family name of Coke (pronounced 'Cook'). His gun is a double barrelled shotgun which is a breach loading weapon (he is posing dropping a cartridge into the breech) and of a type known as 'hinged breech' where the barrels hinge down to allow loading/unloading. You would not see these before c.1875. The barrells are quite long by todays standards (I would say 32" compared to todays usual 28") so again it was probably made 1875 - 1910 (although the photo' could be much later than the gun). However, the real clue for me is in the fashon - not of the clothes but of the dog. This dog is most certainly the keepers own dog. Today he would be the proud owner of a black Labrador Retriever, However, Mr. Sutcliffe appears to have a beautiful black Flatcoat Retriever, as was the 'fashon' for keepers of his day. I have several books in my extensive collection and have studied photo's some of which are dated, and I would place this picture at 1890 - 1918. The coat he is wearing is a typical keepers coat, to be worn on shoot days. On such occasions he would be overseeing the sport and not actually doing any shooting himself. If he were to shoot he would find that, when mounting his gun into his shoulder, the butt would often get caught on the pocket flap. He would, therefore, wear a different coat when out shooting. |
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| Author: | Leaver [ Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gamekeeper Sutcliffe |
Alan, thanks for the information. I received a message from Mike Townend at Towneley Hall. “There is some doubt now about his name. It seems likely that he was called James Shackleton.I have forwarded your e mail onto the person who has identified him and asked her to reply direct to you.” |
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| Author: | Leaver [ Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gamekeeper Sutcliffe |
I received more information on James Shackleton. “More details of James Shackleton. Born Widdop 1824 in the 1841 census he is living at Clough Foot Widdop. Died 24th Jan 1891 age 67 years living at The Old House Cliviger and is buried at the Chapel in Hurstwood. Definitely at Townely in May 1857 as I have the birth certificate of his son Joseph.” |
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| Author: | Mel [ Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gamekeeper Sutcliffe |
You took pictures at Hurstwood Kris. I'll have to have a look to see if there is a Shackleton among them. I wonder how the confusion started? Who thought he was a sutcliffe to begin with? |
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| Author: | Leaver [ Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gamekeeper Sutcliffe |
Not sure Mel. I am not convinced a man who died, 1891 would be the same man in the photo though. Personally I think the photo was taken after this date. |
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